Tuesday, November 20, 2007

How stupid ARE the Liberals? I'm glad you asked.

There's no way this can end well:

Opposition attacks transfers of child prisoners
November 20, 2007

OTTAWA -- Canadian troops are under orders to turn over juvenile soldiers captured in Afghanistan to local authorities, despite reports of torture and allegations the former warden of the main prison in Kandahar had raped minors, the opposition said yesterday.

"These practices would be in violation of the Convention on the Rights of the Child. We transfer them in a prison system that has been at the centre of allegations of torture," deputy Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff said in the House of Commons. "How can the government justify the transfer of children and when will it end this practice?"

It strikes me that, of all the people the Libs might choose to take a principled stand against torture, Michael Ignatieff is a singularly bad choice. If you catch my drift.

If the Cons have the sense God gave a watermelon, they're sharpening their knives right about now, and it's not going to be pretty.


E in MD said...

Didn't you guys also sign that UN Convention Against Torture treaty that says you can't torture or send people out to be tortured?

You know, the one Gonzales told Bush he could ignore because he was emperor of Jesusland?

I'm curious as to how your gov justifies it's illegal behavior. Same as mine? "Um.. Look a shiny new terror alert! Woooooo"

Ti-Guy said...

I don't really get this post. CC: The link you provided documents the fact that Ignatieff (albeit weasely) concludes that both torture and coercive interrogation are unacceptable.

I've course, I'm a die-hard Liberal, so I might be missing some nuance here.

Scotian said...


Remember though politics is at least as much about perception as it is reality, and the perception of Ignatief on the topic of torture is not the same as his actual words show as you comment on. I'd say that is the "nuance" you are not considering here. Personally, I am not inclined to agree with CC here but I do have to say he has a valid point/argument, especially given how the two main Liberal opponents (NDP/CPC) have shown a willingness to basely fabricate political charges for partisan purposes whenever given the chance and this gives them both an opening because of the Ignatief perception issues on torture in the wider public.

That would be my take on it anyway, basically that CC is arguing given the perceptions regarding Ignatief and torture that he is the wrong person within the Liberals to be taking this kind of stand on behalf of the party for the perception issues I raised above, along with the clear willingness of the Liberals opposition (NDP/CPC) to use any and all ways to talk down the credibility/respectability of the Liberals on any and all issues that have resonance within their respective bases, which torture certainly does for the NDP and the perception issues about being weak on security/terrorist sympathizers for the CPC loves to argue about the Liberals.

Ti-Guy said...

that he is the wrong person within the Liberals to be taking this kind of stand on behalf of the party for the perception issues I raised above.

Ignatieff is the wrong person to talk about anything Liberal, period. The fact that we Liberals are still burdened with him has to do with the voters of Etobicoke-Lakeshore and the normal dynamic of Liberals to close ranks.

Ignatieff has said a lot stupid things, and I really do detest him, but he does not condone torture or coercive interrogation. That he might, in the future, is another story, which is really why I'd like to see Ignatieff move back to Harvard.

Scotian said...


Well, that is part of what you get as a big tent moderate/centrist party I guess. Incidentally, I know you are right about Ignatief's position on torture; I did go and read the relevant docs when the claims first came up in the leadership race and you are representing them honestly. The question is though how many outside of those that pay attention to politics closely will and how many will instead believe the false frame that surrounds Ignatief on the torture issue/question.

Not being a Liberal I don't have the same strong feelings you clearly do where Ignatief is concerned, although if he had been elected party leader it would have made it far more difficult for me to support the Libs against the CPC next time out, not that in the end I think it would have been enough to stop me from doing so but it would have been a much more difficult thing for me to do if it meant having to support Ignatief given my own concerns with him (which are not related to the so called torture issue but other areas). Only my genuine belief that Harper and his brand/vision of conservativism represents a grave threat to the future of Canada as a nation, let alone the nation it has become over the past several decades would have allowed me to support Ignatief for PM, whereas with Dion I am far more comfortable with his vision for our future and in terms of his understanding this nation’s dynamic.