Monday, February 28, 2005

History is always such an entertaining thing.

From an
official U.S. Embassy transcript, November 25, 2003:

In consultation with the Iraqi Governing Council, the United States has now laid out a very explicit timeline, or roadmap, that will lead to full Iraqi sovereignty by June 2004, Deputy Secretary Richard Armitage said in a television interview on The Newshour with Jim Lehrer on November 21.

"There's no question that the majority of Iraqi people see us as liberators," Armitage said. "However, if we overstay our welcome, we'll be seen as occupiers. We're trying to thread that needle just right."

Tricky, that threading-the-needle thing, isn't it?


Dizzy Gillespie said...

They don't see us as occupiers, just check out their blogs.

Or, of course, put those blinders back on.

stellababy said...

Iraqis with blogs...? see, I don't think a whole lot of the general population would have regular access to the internet. Opinions expressed in blogs authored by Iraqi diaspora don't count, in my mind, either. Sounds to me like to get a more accurate idea of the occupiers V liberators argument you might want to take a Baghdad street corner poll instead. Good luck with that one.

Dizzy Gillespie said... don't have any idea what Iraq is like now, do you? It isn't some kind of complete slum, although net access is somewhat touch and go. They get about 6 hours of use a day. Granted that isn't as much as in the states, but it is a warzone.

And Iraq is free now, they don't need Governmental permission to blog.

Any expert will tell you the same. In fact, the writers of the Iraq blog I pointed out won the best foreign blog in the blogger challenge. They have also visited America, thanks to their newfound freedom.

Seriously, if you want to just pretend your credible...make sure your "thoughts" have some backing.

And try not to comment on things you obviously don't understand.

I mean, come on...Have you ever bothered to research the area?

Oh, and BTW, about that "Baghdad street corner poll" was already taken from 4,500 Iraqis in baghdad.

90% support the occupation. How 'bout that?

CC said...

From CC:

That's right, Stella ... make sure that, before you comment, you have a firm grasp of the material and have established your indisuptable credibility.

Like with Mr. Gillespie and Social Security. Kind of like that. :-)

And don't forget, Mr. Gillespie is an expert. After all, he reads an Iraqi blog.

stellababy said...

Dizzy, you misunderstand me, as usual. I'm asking you to consider that what you see, read and hear about the situtation in Iraq is filtered through US media. For me, that fundamentally undermines the credibility of what we are told about the situation in Iraq. What makes you think that these bloggers are representative of the majority Iraqi population? How do we know they arent being paid by our government to say good things about the conflict?
This poll you mention; who conducted it? who was asked? were there members of our armed services standing with loaded weapons within earshot?
I doubt these "facts" you rebut to me because I know of plenty Iraqis, I have heard their own voices tell me, they see us as occupiers and they want us out. I'm not doubting there are Iraqis who are greatful. But 90% support? My Ass.

CC said...

From CC:

It's not like Mr. Gillespie needs even more exposure as a hopelessly ignorant, right-wing hack, but it's amusing to examine the award-winning Iraqi blog he keeps creaming his khakis over.

The home page of that blog brags about being a "Weblog 2004 Awards Winner." And just who's responsible for that? Why, the right-wing Wizbang website of all things.

Just how seriously you need to take this particular award can be seen in the list of nominees for Best Middle East or Africa Blog. Notice anyone missing from that list? Why, yes -- there's absolutely no mention of what is arguably the best Middle East blog out there these days -- Professor Juan Cole's Informed Comment. Any list of middle east blogs that doesn't include Cole's is, quite simply, not worth shit.

Even one of the commenters on that page notices this oddity, writing, "Not sure if I've got this right - but Dr Juan Cole's "Informed Commment' ( is REALLY not on this list? If that's so there's something wrong with the process, since obviously, it's one of the most distinguished blogs around today."

Well, duh, yeah. Which means this particular award isn't worth squat. Sort of like the rest of Gillespie's rants.

Dizzy Gillespie said...

CC, by best Mid-East/African blog, they mean a blogger that is writing out of the mideast or Africa. Not some proffesor in the States. Cole's blog isn't eligible.


Dizzy Gillespie said...

And Stella, a little correction, I misunderstand you for the first time. We haven't written to one another before, as I recall.

Anyway, I’d like to address a few of your points.

First, you said, “…consider that what you see, read and hear about the situation in Iraq is filtered through US media.” Actually, no it isn’t. It’s filtered through nothing, but the author’s computer. That’s the funny thing about blogs…they can’t be censored by the U.S. government or media. It’s just like how when I post on my blog, it isn’t filtered through the media. It just gets published online.

Then you asked, “What makes you think that these bloggers are representative of the majority Iraqi population? How do we know they aren’t being paid by our government to say good things about the conflict?”

Well, the first part is a legitimate question. I know that because of the thousands of Iraqis that write to the blog showing their support. I also know that from the Iraqi poll I mention, to which you said phooey. That poll was taken by an Iraqi news organization, and no how much you would like to believe public opinion isn’t in favor of the occupation, it is. That poll can be found at, if you don’t believe me. BTW, saying “my ass” as an argument doesn’t make me think your right.

The second part of that question is just silly. How do I know they aren’t being paid? Well, they constantly ask for donations but that’s probably just a clever ruse. I just thought of something though….how do I know that YOU aren’t being paid by France to undermine the U.S.? And how do I know that CC isn’t a Syrian agent hell-bent on trashing American? How do I know? Common sense would tell me that. But, if you will keep on insisting that this blog id paid by the U.S., then I’ll have to keep on insisting that CC is a Syrian agent. Phooey.

Finally, you stated that, “I know of plenty Iraqis, I have heard their own voices tell me, they see us as occupiers and they want us out.”

Really? Could you bring them here? I would love to see an Iraqi comment on this blog; especially the several that you claim to know.

stellababy said...

Dizzy, I am not insisting anything. You are reading far too deeply into my comments, I'm asking legitimate questions to which your answers for the most part do not satisfy me.
The Iraqis I have met face to face since the conflict began, none of which are close friends, all but one have expressed great anger towards the US. This is maybe 10 people. I do not for one second think my experience is representative of Iraqis in general, but it does lead me to believe the truth to Iraqi sentiment in this regard is that delightful shade of grey which right wing apologists find so difficult to grasp. I also make it a point to seek out reports of the situation there which originate outside of the US. Off hand, I recall Iraqis interviewed in these programs certainly do not have a 90% approval of the invasion. All I am claiming is that I think these blogs do not capture the whole picture, and there is so much more to the situation than what is written within them. You think I dont want things to be peachy in Iraq? I used to be US Army, and I have friends over there right now. I am American, and I want my country to be a force for justice and democracy in the world. But not like this. And I think its going to take a hell of a long time for Iraq and the rest of the world to forgive us.

stellababy said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
stellababy said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.